Season 1 Episode 2: Time Management

In this episode we discuss time management for side projects and some techniques that we use.


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Show Notes

Almost Famous by Will Blew


Ricardo: Welcome to Season 1 Episode 2 of Developer Hustle the podcast about tech side projects and the people who make them. So, Will how was your week?

Will: My week, well, it was a very busy week. There are a lot of things going on at home and at work my life is just as busy as I am but it’s good we kept busy as always.

Ricardo: Cool, any projects you worked on?

Will: Yeah, actually I did. I expanded the streaming cryptocurrency service that I’m writing. I took it from just having Bitcoin posts to Ethereum and Litecoin over the weekend and mapped out an API deployed that and then on Monday I deployed the API documentation through Apiary and yeah, it was good, productive.

Ricardo: Yeah, it sounds like it. I think you did a lot more than I did.

Will: Maybe I don’t know.

Ricardo: So, my weeks pretty good. The only side project you can say I worked on was this podcast. I spent the week creating our website which is built with Hugo which is a static site generator and got our audio files up got the transcriptions up and then went around submitting it to most of the big podcast directories I could find. Submitted it to iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify even though I hear we probably won’t make it on Spotify because of their tight restrictions.

Will: What are their restrictions?

Ricardo: They want, you know, you need to have five thousand followers already and professionally done podcasts. Spotify really wants to lock things down I guess they want it to be as professional as your music which, is funny because they have.

Will: Gary Vaynerchuk is posting airplane like airpod recorded transcribed things to his podcast weekly. I think we’re fine. I think you’re doing a good job and you sound like you did just as much stuff as I did.

Ricardo: Well, we’ll see. I submitted it there I filled it out anyway so, we’ll see where we get accepted and where we don’t. Regardless people can go to to listen to our episodes anyway.

Will: Yeah I saw that it looks great.

Ricardo: Cool, alright so, what are we talking about this week?

Will: This week we’re going to talk about something that we’ll probably talk about multiple times and will probably come out throughout most of these discussions. So, I think it’s good that we’re getting it right out front into the first big episode. Which that topic is managing time. I think everybody has to deal with this you know, whether it’s during work or during their side hustles. But either way it’s a pretty discussed topic I’d say.

Ricardo: Yeah, this is definitely a topic that even if you don’t have side projects this is important I think no matter what you’re doing this is important but when you throw on extra tasks like we do it’s absolutely important in order to get anything done or not to drop the ball on something.

Will: I agree, I think it’s critical to everything you do in life that you set the expectation of time and what you can do within the time you have. I hear you’re not very good at time management Ricardo.

Ricardo: I’m not I mean sometimes I’m good and sometimes I’m not. I’m good until I’m not put it that way and I think my biggest problem is which hopefully we can talk through some of these issues today is excitement. The reason why I do side projects in the first place is because I’m excited and sometimes I get excited possibly about the wrong pieces. I think looking at our show notes I know we mentioned we’re going to go over about details right? And sometimes I think I get too excited about the wrong details. It’s not fully bad but you know, if you want to have a side project that gets out there and ships and other people actually see, you definitely need to kind of choose which details you focus on and as a topic today manage your time.

Will: What do you think you know falling into that pattern of focusing on the details actually causes when you’re working on a project like what is the effect of having that happen?

Ricardo: Well, I think, I’ve read that this happens to a lot of people when they’re learning new languages or libraries as well where if I’m working on something and I need a tiny little library to do something. I will then go to that libraries website and read the docs like all of the docs. And you know maybe three hours later I’ve read the docs I know that library very well. But, now I can’t implement it because I don’t have anymore time and I need to do something else or go pick up my stepson for example or do something. So, then all my time is gone and I didn’t actually get any work done in the project that I wanted to. And mind you reading those docs isn’t necessarily a bad thing but I need to manage how I do that and set aside separate time for that or maybe it’s not really that important if I implement one feature if I don’t need the other features maybe I don’t need to know about them.

Will: That’s fair. I think you could definitely lose some of the knowledge that you’re learning if you’re not actually using it right away and that might be where having to step away and do other things you come back later and you’re not as confident as you were when you first walked away from it.

Ricardo: True.

Will: But, I think you can kind of manage that by doing one of the things that I had wrote down here for us to discuss. Which is grouping tasks before you execute on them. I do mine at night so I’m not going to say explicitly at night because I know you have some feelings about that. But, basically I have a whiteboard and I set long term goals on that whiteboard I set short term goals on there and then I have my notes on what I want to get done for the night and they’re split into groups. The groups are variables sometimes I’ll be like achievable maybe not trying to be realistic with myself and other times it’ll be broken down by the thing that I need to do in the order that I would like to get them done. And that order is usually based on value.The key part of this grouping and having it on the whiteboard is that where I sit where I’m recording right now I can see all of those things. I see them every time I sit down here. They are large and in front of my face whether it’s design things which are on the left side of my board or all these goals and tasks for the next time I sit down I can see them clear.

Ricardo: I think, you know I’ve heard about this before and at a lot of tech companies like at CircleCI we have you know big whiteboards where everybody gets together and we plan things but at a personal level I don’t necessarily use the whiteboard I don’t really have the room for that. I try to use Trello or other tools to kind of keep track of things but, I can only imagine how important it must be how much more helpful it is if you can see it from your desk while you’re working. Like with Trello, I have Trello open but it’s in a separate tab and if I’m looking at something else I don’t see it. And I think seeing it right in front of your face might make a big difference.

Will: I think it works for me, it may work for other people. But I don’t just leave it there. I also use Trello and all those things and I found the same thing is that you know even if they’re open they’re in another tab and they should be something that you work from or at least that’s my opinion. You work from those things. So, the trigger for me is seeing it on that board I move to my Trello I go to the task and I execute on that task. And I found it really effective for getting at least groups of things done and incrementally approaching these projects that I’m always working on to some extent. Oh, I almost forgot sorry to interrupt you. Another thing sticky notes I use them all the time at Linode you know this it’s one of the things that I utilize non-stop they don’t work as well at home but in the business environment they’re definitely helpful.

Ricardo: Yeah, so, speaking of whiteboards. I’m in the process of moving soon and I was thinking I brought this up when I was at Linode. One thing that I’ve always wanted to do, and I’ve never done but maybe you know after I move now is the time is to kind of combine the whole traditional whiteboard thing with something like Trello. I’ve always wondered how I would work practically if I got a big screen like a TV a nice flat screen TV and put it on the wall a cheap one and just put Trello on it. Connect it to a computer open a tab for Trello and just have it widescreen fill up the whole screen and just have nice like main Trello board on there. So it’s kind of like the whiteboard thing but this way it’s connected with Trello. So I don’t have to update the whiteboard and then go back to my computer and then update Trello. I can update Trello and it reflects right until the screen itself.

Will: Yeah I definitely think that would be something that you can integrate into some sort of workflow and be useful, for sure.

Ricardo: Or even if I had like a big all in one then actually drag and drop cards on the screen on the wall right there. Or it could be a big waste of money who knows?

Will: Maybe, but it is what you make it. I think in those kind of situations.

Ricardo: Yeah well, I think I’m pretty sure sometime during 2018 I’m going to try some form or fashion of the even if it’s not a screen maybe like a nice little projection on a white wall or something but something of that kind and see what happens.

Will: Well let me know how it goes. But i think it’ll work out.

Ricardo: Yeah, I’ll let you know. I’ll talk about it in the podcast.

Will: All right, So along with the grouping the tasks another thing that I kind of wanted to fit into that is it’s real easy to get in this trap of having a million tasks. I see it all the time when people start new things and I’m working with them and they want to have this huge giant backlog of things and it’s fine to have those ideas you definitely want to capture stuff but you want to manage those expectations via grouping whether its in Jira or Trello or however you do it. But another critical part is actually setting an expectation with yourself about the time you’re going to spend on these tasks. It’s an easy trap to lead to from okay now I’ve split this list down it’s much smaller I’m diving right in and it’s four hours later and you haven’t gotten as far as you would like or you just completely over complicated the task. So, a thing I do with this is I set maximum time limits on the task based on it’s effort so what it’s going to take me to do. It’s kind of like doing relative pointing in Scrum but at a personal level but I’m not saying it’s done or shippable doing that timeframe i’m just saying I’m only going to spend this much time on this thing because I could end up in one of these two dead zones of productivity and I don’t always do that obviously there are times when I go head down for like four hours but other times I spend an hour and I walk away and I come back to it tomorrow or I come back to it later and I think about the thing that I’m doing and if I have an appropriate expectation of execution on it.

Ricardo: Okay, now so my question for you then is so lets say you have a project you’re working on and you have a bigger feature or goal and you break it down into ten tasks each with a max time limit. Now, are you saying that max time limit is so that you can move from one task to the other in that project or is it more of so that you don’t spend too much time on that project so that you can get back to your wife and kid for example?

Will: It depends on when I’m actually doing the work. So, if it’s like during the day and everyone is home and for some reason I have the ability to spend time doing something like this like I’m on my laptop and I’m in the living room and you know everybody’s doing their thing individually I will just make sure that I don’t spend more than fifteen minutes on it normally. I normally don’t work on my stuff during the day when everyone is home and everything is going on I block that time off almost entirely. Now, when it comes to moving to another project sometimes that’s also the case so like I come in here at night I generally work at night after work usually 8:30ish and I will have multiple projects to work on and I try not to carry more than three. I will go from one task and one thing to another task and another thing to another task and another thing context switching only after I’ve done a substantial amount of work and then I’m done for the night and I I’ll come back to those projects.

Ricardo: Okay.

Will: But it varies depends on what I’m doing.

Ricardo: Okay, yeah I’ve noticed you know I have a lot more than three projects total that I’m working on and any one day I would definitely limit it to two maybe maybe three because that context switching helps me sometimes because if I spend too much time on one particular project I notice my productivity starts to lower I get a little bored so sometimes I’ll just stop that task and then work on something else and I work on several open-source projects a lot of the times my context switching is stop working on a feature for one thing and then take care of an issue that someone opened on one of my other projects. And that kind of gives me time to change it up a little bit keep my brain interested and then maybe I’ll come back if I have time to the original thing.

Will: Yeah, that’s definitely a factor regularly you know that interest not that I’m not interested in the entire thing it’s that I’ve lost interest in solving that problem because it’s frustrating or maybe it’s very mundane it depends but usually it’s not the entirety of the project. [Ricardo: Yeah] But back to the family stuff I definitely try not to do most of this stuff when I am with my family because I try to set expectations with the people around me so like right now I’m in here we’re recording this podcast I’m checking some stuff every once and a while. While we’re doing that because I have to make sure I use my time wisely but I’ve set the expectation with my wife that I’m in here doing this thing and when I’m done I’m going to come out and we’ll talk about the day and all that stuff which we’ve already discussed mostly. And hang out and all that stuff and that’s what I’m doing for that block of time. And she knows that’s a thing and I do what I have to do and I follow-up and we hang out and all that stuff and I’ll generally set that time if I have something to do for any of my projects because I do have a couple where something can happen and I have to react and take action so, I set the expectation I think it’s going to take me this long I gotta go do this thing and then I come back. I don’t know how you juggle setting expectations with people around you. I know you travel a lot and that’s totally different than what I do I’d be curious to see how you approach that.

Ricardo: Yeah, so, traveling itself isn’t too bad until I change time zones. So, I work in the east coast. I work out of New York City and CircleCI is in San Francisco so there’s a three hour time difference so, depending if I’m in San Francisco at the office or if I’m at an event over there that kind of gets a little complicated so, one of the few tools that I use for time management is Google Calendar I try my very best to keep everything in Google Calendar and when I mean everything I mean I have sleep scheduled on my calendar I almost never go by the time I tell myself to go to sleep which is midnight but it’s on there just to block out that time because I can quickly get too involved in something or have twenty blog posts open on my computer and just read for hours at night and forget to go to sleep. So, I have everything blocked out and when it comes to like you mentioned the people around us one of the things I do is Google Calendar is not just for me so I have my personal calendar I have a CircleCI calendar and I try to use them together so with CircleCI obviously while I’m working everyone can see my calendar we can block out time if we need to have some sort of discussion a meeting whatever but even on my personal calendar if I’m meeting someone for dinner if I’m picking someone up or dropping them off those things go on my calendar. They go on my calendar because they take up time and many people overlook that this is how you end up not having time for certain other things because you misjudged something by like fifteen minutes that means the next thing you have to do is going to be late by fifteen minutes. And if you also misjudge that you know four or five things later you’re behind by an hour. So, all of those things are on my calendar and more importantly I send invites to people. So like my girlfriend for example when I need to pick her up or we’re going to go to the movies I’ll actually put it on calendar and send her an invite so that she gets it and she knows what set time that we have for me to pick her up where we’re going to be and it’s kind of a little neurotic sometimes I guess some people might say but it helps me because like you said at night you like to go through your schedule I do that with Google Calendar I do that at night and I do it in the morning. Usually in the morning though when I wake up the first thing I do is look at my calendar and see what time blocks I have set for the day and see where I have empty spots for example if something comes up someone asks me to do something I know how much time I have available or more importantly throughout the course of the day while I’m talking with CircleCI customers or I’m on Reddit just talking with people and something clicks in my brain and all of a sudden I have a new side project idea or I have a new feature for a new side project. I can use my calendar in accommodation with Trello and figure out “do I have time for that today? Do I have time for that next week? The week after?” So, Google Calendar really helps me with that and like I said inviting people as well so they can see what we’re doing together and even my own event so like with my girlfriend I have it so that she can see my free or busy schedule so she may not see all the details of what I’m doing but she can see on my calendar if I’m free or if I’m busy. So this way I can kind of block out time that I need for example for this podcast where we need a quiet place without much sound to kind of record you know? So Google Calendar really really helps me for myself as well as for the people around me set expectations about what I’m doing and when.

Will: Yeah, I think that definitely would work for people who are maybe more intentional than myself. Like, those are a lot of steps for me to do. And everything’s kind of fly by the seed of my pants sometimes.

Ricardo: I don’t know how much any of this stuck with you but my time at boot camp was great because I’m very much a process person that’s kind of how I grew up. My mom had rules for everything and a process for everything and a lot of that stuck with me and that’s why I did so well when I went to boot camp ‘cause you know the military is all about process and I get excited about that when it comes to setting a schedule when it comes to saying we’re going to do this we’re going to do that that stuff excites me so I actually enjoy doing that kind of thing which I know is a little weird but that’s me.

Will: Yeah, I’ll take everything but the schedule part. I mean schedules are definitely valuable. I just personally don’t think I can integrate it well enough. Like I would just fall off doing it pretty quickly like I’d do it for like two days and then be like “ehh.”

Ricardo: Yeah well, so, going a little off topic away from side projects for a second when it comes to scheduling I very much like to schedule everything. However, I like to call myself a spontaneous planner and what I mean by that is I like to have a schedule a set of things that we know we’re going to do and at what time I do this for vacations. However, I am completely okay with changing on the fly. My big thing is I like to have a schedule so that if lets just say we’re a group of people we’re on vacation we’re trying to figure out what we’re going to do for the day. If we don’t know if we’re all sitting around in the room saying “all right what are we doing today? I have no clue. I don’t know what to do.” I like to pull out that schedule and say okay cool we have this, we’re doing this at two. But if something happens we’re driving down the street we see something fun or a baseball game is about to start and we wanna go do that. I’m completely fine changing things up. I like having a schedule as like a backup as something to fall on when we don’t know what to do but I’m completely okay with changing things on the fly if that thing is more important or more fun.

Will: That’s fair. That’s a good way to go about it. You gotta have more fun if you can.

Ricardo: Yeah, so, one thing that you’ll hear especially on entrepreneurship blogs or podcasts is everyone always talks about what do the famous and rich people do to maximize their time for example and almost every single person you hear will say they wake up early. They wake up at six they wake up at five they wake up at four some people don’t go to sleep apparently and I am not a morning person. I try so many times to wake up early but it’s actually very difficult for me but what I’ve noticed is if I do try to wake up early and get a head start on my day the best thing I can do is order my tasks for the day to match how I’m feeling in that morning. So, for example both with side projects and even things like working out for example I try to work out and I like to work out in the morning when I can but when I wake up at six in the morning and I’m just so tired and I don’t want to do anything the last thing I want to do is exercise. So, I’ve learned to push that to the end of the day if I want to wake up early if I’m doing something fun at the beginning of the day then that helps me wake up and that helps me keep that morning schedule and then late afternoon early evening when I’m already up I’m already good that’s when I’ll do my workout so tying that into side projects one trick that I’ve learned it’s a little dangerous it is to do side projects like if you have tasks do them first thing in the morning so like for me I’ll try to wake up six in the morning seven in the morning and go to Starbucks because that’s the most important thing for me of course I have to get my coffee and then after I get my coffee work on the side projects and the reason why I do that is because I know that I need to put a solid eight, nine, ten hours for CircleCI and I can’t not do that that’s my job that’s what I get paid for so I do that later in the day so that when I lose any sort of enthusiasm or I’m a little tired I still do my work because I have to do my work. Side projects are something that you can easily if you’re a little tired push off you know it’s not important, it’s not paying your bills you don’t need to do it. So I actually do side projects a lot of the times in the morning and get a lot of those tasks out of the way. Not for too long maybe I’ll do an hour hour and a half worth and feel good about doing something fun and exciting that helps me get out of bed helps me wake up and then once I feel good and have that sense of accomplishment that I actually got something that really interests me done then I can get into my work day from there.

Will: I can’t do that. I’m a night owl. I got like three lights on right now. I just can’t function like that early in the morning.

Ricardo: It’s difficult. I’m naturally a night owl myself but I try so hard to not go to sleep at four in the morning which is when my body naturally wants to go to sleep because a lot of these projects remember I like to work on a lot of community projects, open-source projects so a lot of the times it involves other people it involves asking someone to follow-up on an issue with more information or asking someone’s opinion on something or if I’m doing some sort of design and I’ve noticed past midnight I can’t do that. Everyone that I might want to ask or talk to is asleep so as hard as that is I try so hard to put myself to sleep before four in the morning so that I can try to wake up early instead and do things when other people are awake.

Will: Yeah, with community stuff that’s definitely important. I just I gotta be working at night I gotta keep going for as long as I can go.

Ricardo: I’ll tell you what though it’s not easy and I’ve noticed more of the creative tasks I’ll do at night like during the day it’s easier for me to do smaller things answer peoples questions a very simple small discrete task like answer emails but if I need to code a new feature or if I need to do some research a lot of that I’ll do at night. I’ve noticed that I’m more creative at night.

Will: Got you. Seems like it works for you and with community stuff especially when you’re struggling managing time zones and maybe you have a lot of users in one place but not the other.

Ricardo: And speaking of time zones just to go back to calendar real quick calendar has a great little Google Calendar has a great little feature that you can enable to turn on multi-time zones so if you do happen to visit a lot of time zones like I do you can actually turn on on the side I think it moved with the new layout that they did you can say that I also want to see the pacific-time zone for example. So, whenever you have events it’ll have the time of that event in normal solid bold letters but then they’ll have in smaller lighter letters the time for that other time zone. Which helps me a lot with CircleCI to just kind of figure out when they say something cause a lot of them will naturally say something in their time zone and I can easily just kind of use that to convert. Not that three hours is all that hard but you know it makes life easier.

Will: Yeah, for sure. So, I think one of the big things I wanted to stress about all these topics that we’ve discussed today was I found that making these tips or tricks or you know these just methods of managing time to make them really effective you need to make them habits. You need to repeatedly do them until they are a natural thing for you to be doing. Otherwise, none of them are going to be very effective like grouping tasks “well sometimes I groups tasks sometimes I don’t.” What’s the point then? Are you trying to be organized or are you not trying to be organized? If you don’t respect the time limits that you’ve set and you don’t set time limits as much as you can obviously you can’t always do that there’s no reason to set them in the first place is what I’m getting at. And the same with setting expectations it’s just a courtesy to let people know if you’re going to be disconnected from the things around you and you know waking up early if that works for you you probably should make that a routine that is a habit because I can only do it when necessary and I think maybe I can get something out of doing it but I know that I wouldn’t really be able to maintain that so there’s really no point in me trying to do it at least right now if my situation were to change that might be different but overall making these habits doing them repeatedly until they are those has been pretty effective for me especially with the whiteboard and time limits. I feel like I’ve been doing that for probably about two years like on my projects. Organizing my projects via me organizing myself effectively has been you know a huge benefit.

Ricardo: Yeah and speaking of that I don’t know if you do the same thing but when it comes to organizing and habits I noticed I used to have a Trello board for my personal to-dos just like personal things i.e I need to go to the post office I need to go do this and pay this bill and then i had a Trello board per project and for each of those words those basically task list for those projects and I would have the tasks i need to do and I fell behind a lot and something that I did about a year ago now and I think it’s helped me out a lot is I have a task board for everything. I’ve integrated my side projects with my personal things with my work all in one board because I noticed what would happen is I wouldn’t go visit those other boards like if I really thought about the project and wanted to work on it then yes but if my mind is kind of all over the place I would never go visit those other boards and thus I would never get those tasks done and I’ve noticed having one board with everything in front of me and then you know Trello has features like labels so you can keep things organized still helped me out a lot to have this one board where I can work on something and even the context switching between side projects and job you know I can be working on a side project and having fun but on that same board I see that hey, i have a blog post due for CircleCI that I need to get a draft in by this time and it kind of reminds me hey I should stop this and switch back over to work which you know is more important and i think that having all of that in one board together with what you said about having time limits will be helpful to make sure that I didn’t waste time on that side project before getting back to work or doing something you know more important or for a family member or my girlfriend or something like that.

Will: Yeah, I mean it’s really when it comes down to it if you’re making these things a habit you should only make them a habit if they work for you all of these types of approaches and all the stuff you’ll read on blogs and forums you know make yourself a better website if those techniques do not work for you you probably shouldn’t use them because we’re people we’re very different in how we can trick ourselves into getting more things done or being more effective or working better with others so make sure it works for you don’t just do stuff or continue to force yourself to do stuff that you just don’t want to do or just doesn’t work for you in a positive way.

Ricardo: Exactly, I think something that we touched on in the first episode is just you know when it comes to side projects especially but make sure you want to do it in the first place. ‘Cause if you keep pushing it off and have this ‘ugh now I gotta do this’ kind of thing maybe it’s not for you. And I see that happen a lot like going back to exercising and going to the gym for example so many people say they want to go to the gym and they never go and what I’ve really found out by talking to these people is that a lot of them don’t actually want to exercise a lot of them like the idea of exercising it sounds good it’s what everybody says you should do so they say they want to do it but they never get it done and it’s because deep down inside it’s not something they actually want to do and when it comes to forming those habits you need to be passionate about it it needs to be something that you want to do like for example this podcast I think starting a habit is the hardest thing and with this podcast I had a dinner earlier today and that dinner was running late. So, already in my mind I was like okay maybe we could push back our recording time by thirty minutes maybe push it back by an hour or maybe we just do it tomorrow and that is a slippery slope and that’s how it starts and this is only our second episode but I told myself no we have a time I need to be there by then and I made sure I got my ass here to record this podcast because you start slacking in the beginning and it gets worse and worse until you just stop doing whatever it is and if you want to keep that habit you need to put some effort into it. You need to actually want to do it and do it.

Will: Yeah, otherwise you’re just wasting your time.

Ricardo: Yeah, alright, so, anything else you want to cover? For time management?

Will: Yeah, I think that’s all I had man. I think we had a good discussion today and hopefully one of the things we discussed helps someone out there or maybe they don’t like any of those things and they’ll tell us why they don’t like them and then we can talk about that next time we record or whatever I don’t know I think it was a good talk either way.

Ricardo: Yeah, I agree. So a few more things I want to mention if anyone who did listen to the first episode I found a Will Blew rap song. I really truly did and [Will: I have like four albums.] Well, I found an album well I’m not gonna lie my girlfriend found the album and then she linked me to it. She did all the work I’m taking credit for her.

Will: What did she think?

Ricardo: She likes it. She actually played it in my car we were driving we were coming back from a diner or something like that and we were driving and I normally don’t like her music I am very much a rap, hip-hop, like R&B and reggae kind of music person where she likes rock, heavy metal so I normally don’t like her music and she goes “I want to know your opinion on this song.” And she just starts playing the song and I’m listening to it and I’m like what the hell is this and I’m listening to it more and I’m like oh I forget the title of the song but it was about the war and about kids dying and I was like there’s a message behind this song and that’s the kind of rap that I like. I know Drake is you know one of the more popular rappers and a lot of people listen to ‘0 to 100’ or all those popular songs but a lot of the songs I like to listen to have some sort of truth in it or some sort of message which you know Kendrick Lamar does, J. Cole does and this song had a message and I was like huh I like it.

Will: I know what song it is already and it’s from 2005 I think 2006 probably or ‘07 around there.

Ricardo: But it was good it was it sounded so professionally done that I wasn’t even sure it was you and when I looked at it I was like it but I don’t know who this is and I looked at her and she just gave me this face and I was like ‘Oh my God this is not Will is it?’ and she just burst out laughing so she found it. I have it. And I will be linking the song in the show notes so sorry Will but I’m going to leak your music.

Will: Sweet, no it’s fine by me. I released all those albums I think one prior to joining the Army two during the Army and one after I got out which was my favorite one the one after I got out. And they’re all on the internet somewhere.

Ricardo: Okay well, your career is going to get a comeback. We’re bringing it back.

Will: Sweet. I can drop an album whenever I’m ready. I’m just lazy about music at this point in my life.

Ricardo: Speaking of dropping things. So, during the work I’ve done this week like I said I’ve submitted the podcast many places not all these directories got back to me yet but I would like to say Developer Hustle is now on iTunes. [Will: Yeah!] Developer Hustle is now on Stitcher and as of today Developer Hustle is now on Google Play music [Will: Nice.] which I don’t even know how to find podcasts in Google Play music but they have it it’s there. So, if you have Google Play music or if you have the Stitcher app or an iPhone iPad anything like that you can find us. My absolute favorite podcast app is on Android it’s called Pocket Casts. It may be on iPhone as well I’m not sure probably is but it’s so well done works so well and they have a nice directory that you can browse as well. And that directory pulls from iTunes so if you are using Pocket Casts you will find our podcast in there as well.

Will: And if you do grab it from iTunes I heard that you should leave a review because it helps podcasts for visibility but also it helps us get feedback from you so we can make the podcast better which is my real priority but I thought I’d mention that other part if anybody cares.

Ricardo: That’s strange I heard the same thing. If you do find us on Stitcher or Google Play music I think Stitcher has like ratings and feedback I’m not sure about Google Play music but if you’re listening to our podcast on some sort of app and they have a review process please leave a review. Please ask us questions let us know how we are doing. What you want to hear more of what you want to hear less of we would really appreciate it in the show notes not only will I have Will’s “unreleased” song but I will also have a links to the iTunes page to the Google Play page all of that in case you want to go find it. That’ll all be in the show notes. So, as we mentioned if you have any questions or feedback for us or maybe if you want to be a guest on our show. Please let us know you can find us on Twitter @DeveloperHustle you can find us on Facebook on and our website Anything else you want to add Will?

Will: No, I think that’s it. Have a great week.

Ricardo: Thanks everybody for listening.

Will: Thank you.

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